EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby m0lsx » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:08 pm

The problems with the new system are that other countries, Germany for example. Who have not rushed into a G4 system have found issues & not just over the geographic coverage provided by G4, but also with other issues associated with the fact that compromises will need to be made that should not be asked of the emergency services. That is due to the spectrum available at busy times not being sufficient to support what is needed. The emergency services need multiple channels available & that will limit spectrum not just to other paying users, but also the emergency services who may not get the spectrum they need.
The British government are rushing into this system despite warnings from all sides & the rush is adding to the potential issues, not just ignoring them.
What is the durability of the G4 system in the event of a power failure or against a hacking attack?? 7/7 showed mobile networks to be unreliable when needed most.
Then add in the recommendation of the post 7/7 inquiry & the Kings Cross underground fire report. Both of which highlighted problems with emergency services communications & both of which made recommendations which this new system will fail to meet.
I think many of us have concerns about the system, not because we care about the who or the what. But because we can see so many issues.
And for me the fact that so many have dropped out of the bidding, suggests that many who were bidding also saw potential share & reputation damaging issues too. As a company does not walk away from a big pay check unless it has good reason to do so.
Also what about the fake IMSI (Stingray) towers?? Some of these look to be governmental (Box??) in nature. But others are clearly about criminal activity. Will these not compromise the emergency services & thus national security??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33076527

Fake mobile towers that scoop up data from passing phones are routinely being used in London, an investigation by Sky News suggests.
Working with German security company GMSK Cryptophone, it claims to have uncovered direct evidence, the first in the UK, of at least 20 instances of the use of these cell site simulators.


But of course terrorists would never have the money available to buy a £1000 Stingray & of course being terrorists they would never do anything illegal like use a Stingray & as we all know & have seen people with technology ability never get involved in terrorism or extremism.
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby G4RMT » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:47 am

I've not yet seen any non-media comment on this? I suspect much hype and spin, and no real detail. I suspect, but have no real evidence, that this is more about the low makeup of the extra allocated phone spectrum that was cleared for the phone companies to throw money at the Government for new expanded services that didn't happen. There's now spare capacity in the phone allocations, close enough for infrastructure sharing - so I just don't get the doom predictions. Frankly, I couldn't care less what the emergency services use as long as it works. I don't understand the assumptions of bad performance. Unless I have misunderstood, the new system being awarded does not share public mobile capacity, it works as an extra layer using additional bandwidth - so is separate from the public network, so has capacity to carry the traffic.

I realise our Government may well be many things, but Airwave 2 would be pretty incompetent, even for their level of incompetency, and surely the experts will have produced a spec that this time is a decent one?

Clearly spectrum monitoring is a necessity nowadays, but they're hardly going to shout about it.
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby G4RMT » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:41 pm

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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby m0lsx » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:45 am

I have just seen this in the Norwich Evening news..

Thousands of miles of rural roads in Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire have limited 3G.


Presumably 4G has even less coverage..

33, 546 miles of rural roads across Great Britain have no, only partial mobile internet coverage.
On 13% of Norfolk, Suffolk & Cambridgeshire roads you could struggle to even send a text message & I do not imagine the rest of the country is any different as a whole.

In Norfolk there are 815 miles of road with only partial 2G phone coverage, the basic requirement to send a text or make a call, while in Suffolk there are 607 miles partially covered and 43 with no signal at all, also known as not-spots, according to research carried out by the RAC Foundation.


Disturbingly for an area prone to flooding & obviously an area that needs land based coastguard coverage as well..

The A149 which runs along the north Norfolk coast was highlighted by researches as having particularly poor coverage.
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby G4RMT » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am

All perfectly true, I suspect from my own experience - BUT - Airwave is far, far worse having much larger cells.
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby Davie Boy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:54 pm

I think next year will be a mess... and I anticipate that no matter what has been dealt Tetra will unexpectedly need to be extended as the anticipated new system will not be ready or up to the task... The fact is the only reason they chose this option was because it was the cheapest... you may say they will have their own bandwidth but it is still the commercial mobile phone infrastructure and network... people have a problem getting 3g in areas as it is not ready yet... 4g is even more behind!
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby JohnUK » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:45 pm

They are gonna have to change the law for this too. Currently it would be illegal for them to drive and talk on their shiny new LTE 4g radios on cell frequencies.
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby m0lsx » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:08 pm

JohnUK wrote:They are gonna have to change the law for this too. Currently it would be illegal for them to drive and talk on their shiny new LTE 4g radios on cell frequencies.


The Airwave radios are also illegal to use whilst driving. The law which defines what is & is not a mobile phone, simply states that what ever it is, "could be used" as a mobile phone.
I asked my MP several years ago about this, they asked questions & I was given the response that yes because Airwave can be made to operate like a mobile phone it does thus comes under the law & should not thus be used while driving without a handheld device.
The law is not about frequencies or if it is a radio or mobile phone. But could it possibly, potentially or realistically be used as a mobile phone, regardless of if that ability is activated on that device at that moment or not.
But if everyone has the same communication equipment & if that communication device is a mobile phone, then fitting a charger/ hands free cradle in each vehicle is not (or should not realistically be) an issue.
The debate with my MP concluded with us agreeing that the issue is not one of driver capability or training, or H & S evaluations, but if the force could reasonably justify not fitting hands free kits to cars & if individual drivers could reasonably justify not placing their radios in those devices.
Clearly there are times when an officer needs to jump into a car & chase someone where seconds count & clearly there are times when a lease or similar vehicle will be in the police vehicle fleet for too short a period to justify fitting a hands free cradle & having delivered many different lease vehicles to the Police for various jobs, it is worth noting that not every vehicle used is a car running on 12 volts, they use HGV's occasionally to catch HGV drivers using mobile phones, or for various under cover roles.
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Re: EE wins controversial £1.2bn police radio contract

Postby G4RMT » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:26 pm

That's not quite correct is it? The Police required the ability to talk, so made sure the determinator was simple the term 'mobile telephone', and two way radio is determined not be a telephone if it requires the use of a PTT switch. This opened up taxi drivers and CB/Ham operators to protection from the law, although driving without due care and attention is still possible, as is careless and dangerous driving. The frequency of operation is not anything to do with it. The question is simply are mobile terminals telephones?

Clearly, the Police believe they are not. I have never seen one operate in full duplex mode, and unless this mode is activated, all is good. There is no case law, but equally no cases leaning one way or the other. I wonder if the MPs input was tested? It seems unlikely nobody has ever used it to make a case unsound - as it's very obvious. Airwave manuals always refer to terminals, never telephones, and I've never even seen a section on using them as telephones to talk to the BT phone system?
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