AOR DV1

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Re: AOR DV1

Postby 26PMR » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:11 pm

Minus1 wrote:It's basic paranoia. There was never any evidence that open communications created any problem, but that didn't stop the hysteria. What is worrying is that it reducing public accountability. At least in the US they have a constitution to fall back on, here we have no such protection.


Exactly.
It's also probably terrorist "fears" of them listening to systems even when the threat is minimal. . .

It's a real shame the scanning hobby is being destroyed by the types of people who want security on everything these days, Benw18 if you don't like people scanning these systems why did you sign up to a radio scanning forum??

Basic privacy is easy to crack if you can program, 255 possibilities.. Of course AES and Enhanced are a different matter, But I am sure there is software out there that can decode basic privacy easily as there are so little keys.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't have privacy, It's just that most things shouldn't NEED privacy unless sensitive information is being read out over the air.
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby moj » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:35 pm

Just reading this and I think 26pmr has got the wrong end of the stick , yeah as scanner listeners its annoying that all our hobby is slowly disappearing due to encryption methods and I wish all radios were in the open like in most the states and I miss the old days when you could here the police but its not benw at fault , if anything he has helped this forums members to understand the dmr system and encryption methods which not a lot of Motorola dealers would never freely divulge etc , also you have to remember its his business so if a client request higher security then he's bound to offer that option or they will go elsewhere and find another dealer to do the job .

As you know its always a catchup game where somebody finds a way round an encryption method and then the manufacturers seal up the loophole hoping it cant be broken into again with there new updates and if ras is envolved with basic encryption you can forget any kind of way of monitoring transmissions and even the new aor dv1 will be useless aswell as all the sdr sticks so its game over.

this has happened to my local shopwatch so I know how stressed out it can make you when they vanish after all the hard work of discovering them so I,ll just say enjoy all this while we still can cause the only ones to blame are all these idiots who publish dmr details they have found online and also the cheap Chinese dmr radios that a teenager can buy off ebay without a licence and get all the details that they need off a forum to program the radio up and cause grief etc and we all knew the day was going to come when they were going to be secure comms again.
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby G4RMT » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:53 pm

I'm fairly neutral here. I was a very keen listener up to about 15 years ago, then work made it very difficult, and the hobby waned a bit. I still use radio in my work, but I don't even use the amateur gear I have. I have to admit that the digital modes have me a bit confused? I can't quite see the point. We've had inversion systems for a long time, but they spoil the audio. The digital systems I have used have narrower and quite sharply filtered audio. My work means I use analogue comms with headsets - single sided ones, and this is pretty narrow, audio spectrum wise, and my working environments are pretty noisy, so I have the level up. I'm now noticing tinnitus in the comms ear to a small degree, but digital comms seems even more harsh effects, and after a session with digital yapping in my ear, the tinnitus is worse. Normal (that is, not scanner enthusiasts or hams) find noisy comms difficult - they haven't learned to raise the radio up, to get a bit more signal, or to drop the squelch to hear the weak stuff, so digital either works or doesn't. You never get a noisy signal - maybe this is what is driving the digital revolution, not privacy. After all, most users don't know people can and do listen in. The military rarely carry out their day to day comms encoded, still using AM, which communications wise is simply years out of date, presumably because the old fade out when its too weak still makes sense? Are we moving to digits simply because we can?

We cannot forget the present security system - the world needs monitoring. I don't like it, but if GCHQ want to listen to my idiotic ramblings on radios, or my phone, or email that's fine. As long as it's not made public I don't care. Scanner users are nosey people. We like to hear interesting things. Loads of people don't. The new AOR allows more people to hear things. So regenerating a bit of interest in the hobby. Would I spend 5 times the amount of money on a receiver? Probably not. Plenty will.

Around here, there's not much activity, really. None of the local stuff I hear in the times I can listen are digital, and there are loads of ham analogue repeaters, plus digital access points - and there is nothing on them. Buying the AOR wouldn't give me anything new. The idea of having a receiver that can, if you want it to, hear things other people can't is what drives people.
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby benw18 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:19 pm

26PMR wrote:Ok all of the topics you reply to is just on encrypted DMR which seems a little suspicious.


Fair comment, but 'suspicious'- absolutely not. Information regarding how to decode colour codes, group codes and other basic information can quite easily be Google'd, encryption however is somewhat of a different ball game. Half of the reason systems are being RAS activated and privacy enabled is because 'we' the dealers often can find information on the web openly discussing system parameters- maybe if people didn't divulge the information they posses to the the world wide web we wouldn't feel it necessary to secure systems quite so much. I can quite happily take a step back from this forum and leave people to guess rather than get told facts- or indeed point people in the right direction as and when appropriate in a private conversation.

Minus1 wrote:Benw18 if you don't like people scanning these systems why did you sign up to a radio scanning forum??


Why, because believe it or not I actually have a genuine interested in radio, hence the reason why I established a communications business and continue to grow and develop the business to the success that it is now. It' also in my interest to know what is going on in the scanning world and the potential problems arising from new technology and increasing interest in DMR.

Most dealers wouldn't entertain the idea of being part of a scanning community, let alone sharing information that in most cases would not be available and/or not in the public domain. Don't get me wrong, although other communications companies are rivals we do all talk and share certain information.

The argument will always be there 'does a company/user require encryption'... The true answer is 90% of the time no, probably not. But as it is a 'free' feature (as is RAS) it can provide a good selling point for us the supplier. Being able to offer relatively secure communications may not be at the top of the list for a bus company, however it does add a level of reassurance. Many, including me, believe it is good practice to make a system secure- at the end of the day our end users can easily spend £20k-£100k+ on a system- the last thing I want is the client calling me saying someone is blocking their channels or they are getting 'interference'- i'm pretty sure you wouldn't be too impressed if that were your mobile phone provider and people kept jumping in on your conversations, or you constantly couldn't get a signal because the local cell had been hijacked...

There is no point being bitter that systems are becoming more and more secure, its the age that we live in and its only going to get worse- even the iMessage I send from my iPhone is fully end-to-end encrypted. I help people out as and where I can, there are plenty of members on this forum alone that would vouch for that. If my honesty and professional opinion is too blunt then I do apologise, but there is no point sugar coating it.
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby 26PMR » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:40 pm

benw18 wrote:
26PMR wrote:Ok all of the topics you reply to is just on encrypted DMR which seems a little suspicious.


Fair comment, but 'suspicious'- absolutely not. Information regarding how to decode colour codes, group codes and other basic information can quite easily be Google'd, encryption however is somewhat of a different ball game. Half of the reason systems are being RAS activated and privacy enabled is because 'we' the dealers often can find information on the web openly discussing system parameters- maybe if people didn't divulge the information they posses to the the world wide web we wouldn't feel it necessary to secure systems quite so much. I can quite happily take a step back from this forum and leave people to guess rather than get told facts- or indeed point people in the right direction as and when appropriate in a private conversation.

Minus1 wrote:Benw18 if you don't like people scanning these systems why did you sign up to a radio scanning forum??


Why, because believe it or not I actually have a genuine interested in radio, hence the reason why I established a communications business and continue to grow and develop the business to the success that it is now. It' also in my interest to know what is going on in the scanning world and the potential problems arising from new technology and increasing interest in DMR.

Most dealers wouldn't entertain the idea of being part of a scanning community, let alone sharing information that in most cases would not be available and/or not in the public domain. Don't get me wrong, although other communications companies are rivals we do all talk and share certain information.

The argument will always be there 'does a company/user require encryption'... The true answer is 90% of the time no, probably not. But as it is a 'free' feature (as is RAS) it can provide a good selling point for us the supplier. Being able to offer relatively secure communications may not be at the top of the list for a bus company, however it does add a level of reassurance. Many, including me, believe it is good practice to make a system secure- at the end of the day our end users can easily spend £20k-£100k+ on a system- the last thing I want is the client calling me saying someone is blocking their channels or they are getting 'interference'- i'm pretty sure you wouldn't be too impressed if that were your mobile phone provider and people kept jumping in on your conversations, or you constantly couldn't get a signal because the local cell had been hijacked...

There is no point being bitter that systems are becoming more and more secure, its the age that we live in and its only going to get worse- even the iMessage I send from my iPhone is fully end-to-end encrypted. I help people out as and where I can, there are plenty of members on this forum alone that would vouch for that. If my honesty and professional opinion is too blunt then I do apologise, but there is no point sugar coating it.



Fair enough, Sorry about what I put- Looking back at what I posted it seemed a bit rude and hostile which was not the intent -
I just have a bit of a problem with Motorola in general I don't like their way of selling programming cables, software and other things for a higher price than other companies it feels a bit like it's the "apple" of radio in the way it sells things overpriced.
In the way I don't like unnecesesary encryption but I can kind of see it as a good selling point that you explained, I completely agree with TX protection like RAS It's just that I didn't really understand why every system isn't allowed to be listened to.

The world in general is becoming more and more opque in regards to what we know is going on, which is quiete scary to tell the truth. I think the public should have a right to know what companies are doing unless it's sensitive information or information that competitors can use to gain a unfair advantage.
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby 26PMR » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:40 pm

benw18 wrote:
26PMR wrote:Ok all of the topics you reply to is just on encrypted DMR which seems a little suspicious.


Fair comment, but 'suspicious'- absolutely not. Information regarding how to decode colour codes, group codes and other basic information can quite easily be Google'd, encryption however is somewhat of a different ball game. Half of the reason systems are being RAS activated and privacy enabled is because 'we' the dealers often can find information on the web openly discussing system parameters- maybe if people didn't divulge the information they posses to the the world wide web we wouldn't feel it necessary to secure systems quite so much. I can quite happily take a step back from this forum and leave people to guess rather than get told facts- or indeed point people in the right direction as and when appropriate in a private conversation.

Minus1 wrote:Benw18 if you don't like people scanning these systems why did you sign up to a radio scanning forum??


Why, because believe it or not I actually have a genuine interested in radio, hence the reason why I established a communications business and continue to grow and develop the business to the success that it is now. It' also in my interest to know what is going on in the scanning world and the potential problems arising from new technology and increasing interest in DMR.

Most dealers wouldn't entertain the idea of being part of a scanning community, let alone sharing information that in most cases would not be available and/or not in the public domain. Don't get me wrong, although other communications companies are rivals we do all talk and share certain information.

The argument will always be there 'does a company/user require encryption'... The true answer is 90% of the time no, probably not. But as it is a 'free' feature (as is RAS) it can provide a good selling point for us the supplier. Being able to offer relatively secure communications may not be at the top of the list for a bus company, however it does add a level of reassurance. Many, including me, believe it is good practice to make a system secure- at the end of the day our end users can easily spend £20k-£100k+ on a system- the last thing I want is the client calling me saying someone is blocking their channels or they are getting 'interference'- i'm pretty sure you wouldn't be too impressed if that were your mobile phone provider and people kept jumping in on your conversations, or you constantly couldn't get a signal because the local cell had been hijacked...

There is no point being bitter that systems are becoming more and more secure, its the age that we live in and its only going to get worse- even the iMessage I send from my iPhone is fully end-to-end encrypted. I help people out as and where I can, there are plenty of members on this forum alone that would vouch for that. If my honesty and professional opinion is too blunt then I do apologise, but there is no point sugar coating it.



Fair enough, Sorry about what I put- Looking back at what I posted it seemed a bit rude and hostile which was not the intent -
I just have a bit of a problem with Motorola in general I don't like their way of selling programming cables, software and other things for a higher price than other companies it feels a bit like it's the "apple" of radio in the way it sells things overpriced.
In the way I don't like unnecesesary encryption but I can kind of see it as a good selling point that you explained, I completely agree with TX protection like RAS It's just that I didn't really understand why every system isn't allowed to be listened to.

The world in general is becoming more and more opque in regards to what we know is going on, which is quiete scary to tell the truth. I think the public should have a right to know what companies are doing unless it's sensitive information or information that competitors can use to gain a unfair advantage.
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby benw18 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:04 pm

26PMR wrote:I just have a bit of a problem with Motorola in general I don't like their way of selling programming cables, software and other things for a higher price than other companies it feels a bit like it's the "apple" of radio in the way it sells things overpriced.


I agree Motorola is very much like Apple- expensive, secretive and of course fully business orientated. The product is envied by many and that's one of the big reasons that they have total market domination in DMR (as they also did back in the analogue days with the GP/GM 300 series). The reason CPS and programming cables are expensive is because they try and make it harder for end users to have the ability to programme (very often that's where dealers make their profit), the profit margins are by no means amazing on hardware- they are however acceptable, but certainly not amazing.

Everything has a value, and that's what Motorola believe their product is worth. Again, very much like Apple, people believe in the brand- that's half the battle won already. If I turn up to a demo with some TYT MD-380's people will question the brand/company... And the honest answer I would have to give is 'i don't know anything about the company'- hence the reason I don't do that! Most people have heard of Motorola through some means, and because of this there is an amount of trust bestowed already.

26PMR wrote:The world in general is becoming more and more opque in regards to what we know is going on, which is quiete scary to tell the truth. I think the public should have a right to know what companies are doing unless it's sensitive information or information that competitors can use to gain a unfair advantage.


Again I agree that things are becoming more opaque, but this is what has been coming for the last 10 years (or more). I don't however believe people have the right to know what companies are doing, regardless of its nature. People invest hundreds, thousands and in some cases millions of pounds to establish companies and its only fair that they maintain a level or privacy- just the same as we do as individuals.

At the end of the day when it comes to 'radio' the people who want to listen to whats going on will always want to listen, but like we all agree the world is changing (not for the better in many regards) and because of this we must put measures in place to protect people and their business. I totally understand that 99% of the people who want to listen do it for a hobby (I openly admit I was a keen scanner 20 years ago) and have absolutely no intention of causing problems and/or using the information they might hear to a negative effect. However, there is always the 1% who do want to cause problems and use information, this ranges from competition gaining an advantage, criminals finding a weak point all the way through to terrorist cells which we know are active in the UK... And of course the general muppets who just get a kick out of being grade A twits.

Anyway, this thread hi-jack we have made isn't going to help the people who want to read about AOR's new device, I will happily talk/help people if they need it (just drop me a PM).
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby Radioshane » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:14 am

Does anyone know if york storenet use encryption ?
As I'm thinking of getting the dv1 !
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Re: AOR DV1

Postby m0lsx » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:30 am

26PMR wrote: I just have a bit of a problem with Motorola in general I don't like their way of selling programming cables, software and other things for a higher price than other companies it feels a bit like it's the "apple" of radio in the way it sells things overpriced.


No company wants their product to be seen as cheap & part of what Motorola has done is to break up the price of the system, a well known marketing tool..Ever seen the & only X per day advert?? Do you pay by the day or do you pay by the month or quarter or year?? Handheld radios only xyz but with paid for extras that are free with others is a marketing version of that.
Most PMR systems are brought commercially & company execs want to be seen to be getting "best value" for the company, so cheap radios are not what many execs want to be seen to buy. "I got us the best radio system on the market" may mean I paid more than I needed to, if you know about radio, but if you don't it means, that must be good.
Pricing is a marketing tool, that suggests quality & breaking the price down by charging for what others give away is a way of increasing the cost without seeming to.
Marketing is a complex game of psychology & being a market leader or appearing to be, simply by charging more is a very simple ploy, especially if you can suggest most other people think you are the best buy, look at the queues apple designs into it's product launches & how they market those queues..That gives a market image of value, even if it is not there.
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